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CLR 101 UL turning L - the first of many?

Discussion in 'Technical - Suggestions and Bug Reports' started by Phaelia, Jun 28, 2017.

  1. Phaelia
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    Phaelia New Member

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    Hello,

    I've been waiting to see what you were going to do about it without taking part in it, but seeing nothing has changed so far, despite Lumar's actions, and a new patch today, I will speak it out loud, myself.

    I am the second (former) owner of the C.L.R. 101, and the first one to ever purchase it and tier it.

    [​IMG]

    As it is already known by those who followed Lumar's thread at http://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?298132 , and as said in the mini-patch which came with loot 2.0, "The C.L.R. 101 has been changed to be limited, which was initially intended."

    I am now the (proud?) owner of this... costly piece of weaponry.

    [​IMG]

    To make things clear, the VU Notes relative to the introduction of the C.L.R. and the three other weapons states :

    "- 4 new Level 7 weapon blueprints for Blueprints: Cyrene book, with more to come after the Mini Patch."
    Source : http://cyreneforum.com/threads/cyrene-vu-notes-may-30th-2017.7620/

    At no point has it been mentionned the resulting weapons would be limited, yet they have been turned to Limited after your own mistake of releasing them as Unlimited.
    THIS IS A FIRST.

    - You cannot compare with the Mayhem Scintillator series, since the statistics of the weapon were announced before release.

    - You cannot compare with IMKII which has always been considered a mistake, since it is still in the game, unmodified* (next point).

    - You cannot compare with the few weapons (and amplifiers) on Calypso have been altered in the past, since they only recieved the new statistics after the first repair. The un-repaired weapons eventually became Ancient. This includes but is not limited to AIMKII and Ancient MM, and another one worth mentionning (next point).

    - You cannot even compare to the Ancient Cempball-Welch 1/P-3 http://www.entropedia.info/Info.aspx?chart=Weapon&name=Cempball-Welch_1/P-3_Ancient which was mistakenly released without a decay satistic (!), which means quite literally, it does not decay ! (more info here : http://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/f...ll-welch-1-p-3&p=313239&viewfull=1#post313239 )
    It is still in the game and gained the ancient status as well. Even though its economy is closer to IMKII than any other weapon could dream of.

    Compared to that, what had the C.L.R. 101 ?

    [​IMG]

    A slightly better eco than the other options, and some more range than two of them. That's all. It's nothing more than a weapon between Xent/ARS and Adj MKII.

    What are you going to do about it ? Are you really going to leave it like that simply because there's only two in-game so we're easily replaced I guess ?

    Why could you not make the new ones L and leave those be ?

    It isn't only about wasting 800 peds, I've wasted more than that on Flesh Rippers alone already !

    It's about TRUST.

    What can happen with my gear now, or anything I might purchase in the future ?

    Can I even purchase anything without having the fear it might turn to L or be "adjusted" on-the-fly because you don't like it anymore ?

    This is a REAL CASH ECONOMY, why am I not getting what I've PAID for ?

    I hope this will not fall into deaf ears this time, and also hope you will be able to restore some of the trust you've destroyed with this recent "bugfix".

    Regards,
    Inistae Sephoris.
    Overcooked Panda likes this.
  2. Paul Jetman Masters
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    Paul Jetman Masters Well-Known Member
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    i can imagine the pain, i was involved in Lumar's post from the start when he questioned the UL status, to someone who follows cyrene VUs, it did seem like a clear mistake from day 1, but thats in the past now.

    is there only 2 in the game? i sure i saw one on the auction so i suspect more, but i have noticed they became 107's. have they been eco tested to compare with the original 101, is the TT the same as the 101? incase to were given a superior product already but of course still (L)

    i can't comment on any actions Cyrene take, or if its even their error. i do have some thoughts on what could be done but thats fairly irrelevent when im not the one making decisions.

    Wish you GL
  3. San
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    San Sandal San Tolk

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    Just to clarify: Did you pay for an item you had no idea it was put out by mistake and might have an uncertain future, or did you pay for it fully knowing that there is a potential controversy about it, speculating you would be entitled to keep it and, hopefully, pass it on for much more once its permancence would have been settled? The same consideration of course also applies to the original owner.
  4. Phaelia
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    Phaelia New Member

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    I purchase the first one from auction, and know the player who purchased the second from auction again but have no reason to name him, his gun was sold to Vi (since he openly named himself it's fine) who sold to Lumar. I haven't heard of any other existing.

    I did not shoot once with the new one, but it does have the exact same eco rating as Skildelk Lancehead, which had the exact same DPP pre loot-2.0, so I assume it is identical but will test if needed.

    I was browsing Auction casually when I noticed an item I didn't know, I checked its stats and made some maths about it, decided it was good and bought it out. Didn't even know where it came from back then.

    EDIT : not completely correct, I do remember I opened Hall of fame before buying, to get discoverer's name, BP was on the same page, so I knew it was crafted and bought it under the assumption it might be a rare-ish BP.
    It's only after having bought it that I've checked what it was exactly (checking VU notes from Cyrene, I never ever check anything that isn't Caly usually), and learned there was 4 BPs. There was only 3 dropped at this time (CLR 101, and the L laser pistol and L BLP rifle).
    I considered it was supposed to be 2 UL 2 L and asked the crafter to let me know if he discovers the last one.
    I was following globals after, and mailed the one who discovered the last BP as soon as I saw it, asking him to give me stats, which he did, but he did say the BLP pistol was Unlimited which alined with what I thought. I couldn't put even a Beast on it though and decided it wasn't worth. (Turns out it actually wasn't even UL, but I guess he thought this because of BP naming or something?). You can use EL to get the exact time every BP was discovered, my screens gives you the timestamps for both my purchase and my tier HoF, if you need to verify this...
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2017
  5. Paul Jetman Masters
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    Paul Jetman Masters Well-Known Member
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    sorry missing key detail, when i said i saw on auction i meant a 107, meaning another 101 was converted. ofc the the qty can be checked by MA easily
  6. Phaelia
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    Phaelia New Member

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    I believe it comes from the corrected BP after the patch ? I don't really see why an "original 101" owner would sell the L version just like that without saying anything, but I might be wrong.

    EDIT : did not see the other question. Yes, TT is the same, full TT since I repaired it before patch, all stats are the same, just did not decay test it.
  7. Paul Jetman Masters
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    Paul Jetman Masters Well-Known Member
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    its possible someone crafted a few, but didnt want to sell while they were been questioned
  8. Paul Jetman Masters
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    Paul Jetman Masters Well-Known Member
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    Nvm it seems the CAP & CBP got 107s too. Weird that the were changed too, unless the 101 now is producing 107s
  9. Sub-Zero
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    Sub-Zero Active Member

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    This is worse than the ecotron vendor design pre loot 2.0
    No matter if it was unintentional or not, if a player bought a gun that was UL it should remain UL, but no more drops. Make it right Kris for all who purchased this gun. Trust takes years to build, and can be broken in a single moment, trust is the hardest thing to gain, the easiest thing to lose, and the most valuable currency you can have. Break that trust, and expect shitstorms and no more trust = no more ped income = bankrupt etc.
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  10. Overcooked Panda
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    Overcooked Panda New Member
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    I really like Cyrene, but I chose to leave after the last update. Loot 2.0 has been good for me, but I had been staying on Cyrene for awhile grinding to 200 badges for a chance to get an Ecotron, and I was close to reaching it, but after the patch and the fact that I could no longer mine anything more than Lyst or Oil, and the vouchers weren't dropping, I saw no reason to continue to stay on the planet for the time being.

    I fully understand why changes were made to the ARC Vendor Weapons, and although disappointing, it's understandable. I finally finished the fap mission and got a nice reward and was hoping to make it through the arc challenges to get an equally nice weapon reward.

    To stay on topic, the changing of the arc vendors, and loot, etc was a decent change. The changing of the UL weapon to a (L) weapon is completely unreasonable without some compensation. Being that this is a RCE game, I wouldn't hold it against anyone that bought it with the intent to re-sell later for a nice profit if it were to be changed, and I wouldn't speculate either way. But, I know for me, like on the ARC Weapons, I wanted one to use, not to sell, and I presume that the OP feels the same way about this weapon which is why he bought it at first glance because it made sense to him.

    I really hope that Kris can make this right, if not, it will be remembered when I think about coming back to Cyrene and investing more time and ped into the planet myself.
  11. mastermesh
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  12. Kris | Cyrene
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    Kris | Cyrene Lo and Behold, the Fixer of Bugs Staff Member
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    Hey guys,

    Definitely not.

    To start I just want to be clear on this: the only time anything on Planet Cyrene can update is during the VU and Mini Patch, any changes that happen outside of those two instances are strictly controlled by MindArk.

    I have already been contacted by Lumar via PMs here on our forums.


    I feel like that I should point out that yes, the patch notes point out that there are 4 new level 7 weapons, and while all 4 of them were intended to be limited, only 3 of the 4 were flagged correctly (read: limited). It is not as if the other weapons released at this time were re-classified as Limited or that the C.L.R. used any components that were significantly different than the other 3 weapons that were released along with this one.

    I don't have enough knowledge about those non-Cyrene weapons to make any comment or glean any comparisons to the weapon in question outside of the fact they were released with mistakes and for whatever reason MindArk left them that way.

    I agree, that the weapon in question has very similar stats to the other weapons and is not very special.

    I'm waiting to hear back about how many are in game currently. Although I'd be willing to bet it would be more than 2.

    Honestly, this weapon was so run of the mill and there was nothing special about it as well as being easily crafted, so at the time it didn't seem like the issue it is: consider this lesson learned on the part of Planet Cyrene and by extension myself.

    This is clearly a rash generalization and does not reflect happened to the item in question.

    In this instance, you were dealing with a low level item that was crafted by low level and inexpensive components just after a VU and before a Mini Patch that even Lumar thought was a bit suspicious which is why he posted his :
    Is this a BUGGGGG??? NEW WEAPONS over on the PCF looking to see if this was correct or not.

    It's worth to note that this item was between the only patches that we have to make any adjustments. This item was released with other like items with similar crafting components but this one was the odd man out.

    This item was not changed because we didn't like it anymore, it was changed because it was a bug, it was changed because when we submit our item proposals to MindArk this item, just like the other 4 (and now 16 as of the Mini Patch) weapons were all set to be Limited item.

    The Mini Patch gives us additional time to correct any mistakes that happened from the VU, this being one of them.

    As I've never seen you post or interact on these forums before you might not be aware but, every posting here is read, and many of them are responded to, as well as PMs and even outside links that get brought here.

    Of course, once an item comes out its very difficult to change it, and not just from a database point of view, but from a trust point of view as well.

    I definitely don't want anyone to feel cheated, which is why I have already engaged with support on behalf of Lumer about the item in question and looking at what options we have in this regard.

    I don't have any additional information to add at this time other than: this item as it pertains to Lumer is currently under review between Planet Cyrene and MindArk support.

    Also to touch on what Jetman said:

    Yes, all the 101s were adjusted to 107s (which I though had happened with the VU) to be more inline with our other weapons having the skill minimum in the title. So only the names of both the blueprints and their crafted counterpart were changed to match.

    Once I have more information from support I will reach back out to Lumer via our PM.

    Regards,
    Kris
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  13. Phaelia
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    Phaelia New Member

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    Hello Kris, and thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed answer.

    Whilst I do like the weapon and bought it for myself (to answer the other's concern at the same time, you can notice how many sales posts I've opened recently, and even after the controversy started, the C.L.R. was never one of them), I also did not mind much losing 800 peds on an item, hunting a single day or selling one of my (bigger) items after many months of use will already leave a larger mark simply with the difference in market value. It seems different for Lumar, since it became his main gun after he purchased it (or maybe he simply wanted to resell it, since he made a post... I don't think this matters here, I just want to say that it does make up most of his ingame ressources as far as I know, and thus was a serious hit for him).
    This is also the reason why I did not contact you, MindArk, Livesupport [...] directly, but stayed a spectator on this case.
    However, having talked about it with a friend, yesterday, he did mention something interesting :

    "It would leave a precedent".

    And this reason alone is the reason why I ended up making a thread about it. To prevent, in the future, a similar situation of an item recieving a drastic change without anything out of the scale (DPP, DPS, Attacks, etc... mainly have the Axe from Rocktropia in mind, which is to my knowledge, the only weapon which got effectively nerfed after release, because of a DPP around 9, and I completely understand that a change is needed at this point as it causes serious balance issues). This time it is 800 peds, however if it stays this way, it also means Cyrene or any other planet will get the ability to say "previous items were already corrected when they weren't introduced properly", or something in those lines, which would be enough justification to change an item regardless of its potential market value at this time. There is no precedent for now (to my knowledge), and I did respect EU (MindArk/PP) a lot for walking this path for so long. One step out of the path is all it takes on these matters.

    I haven't seen any (public) communication from neither you nor Lumar on the subject (his thread is dead, bumps being re-phrasings of "waiting for an answer"), so I wanted to refresh the subject and get a public answer.

    Whilst the components required to craft it might give a hint, or the Cyrene's VU notes another (as mentionned by Paul Jetman Masters in this very thread), for one who doesn't have the Bluepruit (read : pretty much every possible interested buyer), or for someone not reading VU notes with an analysing approach (I acknowledge that, I did purchase the weapon before checking your VU notes, however, if it was stated that the weapons were going to be Limited, it is technically my own fault for not getting enough information before making a decision, but I will not take the blame of not "reading between the lines" to decypher your intentions, I should not have to interpretate anything official for anything else than speculating on its impact ingame), it is not clear at all. I see an item ingame, I get a global, I get some tokens, I find some fruits... That is just plain normal for me, and as I did not see anything out of the ordinary, it did not even came to mind that it might not be intended that way.

    About this very thread made by Lumar, apparently he was more informed than me already. You can see my own answer, bashing him back then, post #28, since to me, it sounded like he wanted to make my item Limited because he could not get it himself. At this point I was still not even considering it might have been a mistake, seeing nothing special in the weapon. It is Justine who clarified all this, 12 days after my post, 14 days after my purchase http://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/f...MEGATON-A202&p=3585388&viewfull=1#post3585388 .

    I can fully understand this, I obviously cannot speak for MA regarding their decision to leave them the way they were, but I can provide the few hints I have, one being a Livesupport case made by Lumar about this case :
    http://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/f...MEGATON-A202&p=3587123&viewfull=1#post3587123

    From what I understand, regarding the weapons I mentioned, they prefered not to change items people have invested in already (most changed weapons were IMKII, MM or other weapons of a market value at 5 digits...) in order to preserve their playerbase's trust. I honestly wouldn't have deposited that much into the game myself if I knew the developpers were modifying every item they want to everytime they see fit. Tweaks are needed for extreme cases of course (an axe with 9 DPP for example, again...). The "Ancient" system seemed fair enough to me, and considering I cannot find complaints about it, I believe it was accepted by the playerbase in general. But of course that is only how I understand it and judge it, and only MindArk themselves, or you, are able to get the correct reasoning behind this.

    I rarely ever post on the forums outside trading sections, and I do lack knowledge about anything that isn't related to Calypso as I already stated. I really appreciate the communication from your part, which is pretty difficult to get most of the time, though it seems common here, and it deserves respect.

    I hope you will be able to come up with a fair decision on this, both you and MindArk, and I will be looking forward to hearing of it.

    Regards,
    Inistae Sephoris.
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2017
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  14. Justine
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    Justine Well-Known Member
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    Before the mini patch, people knew it was a bug :

    http://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/f...ne-of-a-kind-setup-C-L-R-101-UL-OMEGATON-A202

    but they still tryed to sell it with a high price. How a crafted weapon (level 1) with cheap craft components can worth more than a lootable weapon like X3 or weapon from upgrader npc Adjusted MKII ?

    This is an RCE, ok. But if you overpaid an item, this is not the planet partner or MA fault i think.
  15. Kris | Cyrene
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    Kris | Cyrene Lo and Behold, the Fixer of Bugs Staff Member
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    Hey Inistae Sephoris,

    You are quite welcome, I'm glad to be the mouth piece and facilitate any communication that will help further explain the situation from the developer point of view.

    I appreciate your explanation and reasoning behind making this post.

    I thinks that's fair, and echo's what both Sub-Zero and Overcooked Panda talked about in their posts. It's about trust making sure that players can count the items they receive.

    No problem, it's good to get things like this in out in the open.

    This is something that we, as developers, can learn from. It's difficult to make cohesive patch notes without them getting to wordy and sometimes information isn't conveyed in a way that fully explains everything that it pertains to.

    In the future it's possible that we'll have maybe some sort of developer's notes to go along with the patch notes, but separate that explains more about what we wanted to achieve with that patch.

    The balancing of any weapons even before they are released is...tricky to say the least. I wish that I had more information about some of the past changes to share some insight about it, but I'm not privy to these.

    Thank you again for your kind words, I'm glad to help as I can.

    This sort of discussion is what makes us reaching out and talking to the players make it feel like it's the right decision.

    Cheers,
    Kris
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  16. jetsina
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    jetsina Active Member

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    One problem with new stuff is that nobody can be sure if the stats are correct unless stated somewhere clearly for all to see. It would also not be unusual to have a few unl versions of what is normally (L). It might be unusual to be able to craft them, as the number in game could depend on the number of successful clicks from a super rare bp(L).
    It is true that I would think it fishy if a new family of weaps had been discovered, all (L) except for one which appears to be unl, but someone seeing something nice on auction may have no idea of there potentially being a mistake.

    If there are only a few in game and the stats are not unbalanced, I would hope the devs could leave them in the game (or turn them back to unl under a slightly new name for those who have them).
    Trust in the game and items..., yes.
  17. mastermesh
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    I agree... you got lots of and lots and lots of UL versions of L items on calypso, and when many of the sib items first came out they'd do a handful of the UL sib items all released in batches. Would only make sense for it to happen on other palents as well.

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