Concern about EPIC missions post loot 2.0

[sokolade]

Hello forum, hello Kris and Lil'mc,

I will start with saying that this is not whining thread or anything like that. I love this planet and want it to prosper and all those good things

But i think i found an issue that is fundamental for this planet since it works nothing liek any other planet.
Loot 2.0 works completely different to what loot 1.0 used to work like. Mainly because loot 1.0 was a dpp (damage per pec) model and loot 2.0 is not. Efficiency is the new king and so on but also the more effective you are the less loot you get. Anyway not here to explain how loot works, but how it reflects to Cyrene and especially to rare loots and Epic mission chains.

Since loot 2.0 it is harder to loot single high tt items, and unfortunately 100ped tt is already large for a 10k hp mob. (L) items are harder to loot but its a bit different on those since tt value is variable, but real problem is with items like Lazidol parts since they all are 100ped tt. Even Wasp parts that are 62ped tt is hard to loot. Ofc i might be wrong and they are just taken out of loot or drop rate has been significantly lowered but i dont think that is the case.

I have been doing some tests, pretty expensive by the way and i have not been able to loot any of the parts from lazidol or wasp queen. Its hard enough to get the baits for these creatures and wasp is fairly hard to kill too, but i am yet to see a part in loot.
so far i have killed around 100 lazidols ( i know its not a lot but hey its super expensive and i am doing my best) and around 50 wasp queens. I have gotten globals above the item tt value threshold, no luck and havnt got any hofs on them, hoping to see one soon to maybe see a part in the loot. I am also not the only one who is doing killign these creatures. There are others and i know the number of killed lazidols in past 2-3 weeks is around 200.

If Kris could please clarify that it is possible to loot these parts it would satisfy my concern, but if it isnt or it is impossible to tell, then maybe Cyrene should review mechanics behind how loot 2.0 works in regards of this?

If i am right and these items dont drop as often or at all as previously did and it is a fault of loot 2.0 mechanics i have a couple of suggestions/workarounds.

*lower tt value of these items (and introduce shrapnel or nanocubes into recipe to compensate), or introduce alternate items.
*increase hp fo the wasp and lazidol. Could increase even 10fold if that helps to loot these items

These may not be best solutions but something that came to mind without not much brainstorming.


Does this make sense? What does forum think? What devs think?

All the best
Soko

P.S.
While you at it Kris, can you spawn me some Dukes please?

 

[sokolade]

oh and before anyone says anything about small sample size, well if i had more baits i would do much much more. But they are hard to come by and also cool downs are killing me.

 

[Kris | Cyrene]

Hello sokolade,

I will start with saying that this is not whining thread or anything like that. I love this planet and want it to prosper and all those good things

But i think i found an issue that is fundamental for this planet since it works nothing liek any other planet.
Loot 2.0 works completely different to what loot 1.0 used to work like. Mainly because loot 1.0 was a dpp (damage per pec) model and loot 2.0 is not. Efficiency is the new king and so on but also the more effective you are the less loot you get. Anyway not here to explain how loot works, but how it reflects to Cyrene and especially to rare loots and Epic mission chains.

Since loot 2.0 it is harder to loot single high tt items, and unfortunately 100ped tt is already large for a 10k hp mob. (L) items are harder to loot but its a bit different on those since tt value is variable, but real problem is with items like Lazidol parts since they all are 100ped tt. Even Wasp parts that are 62ped tt is hard to loot. Ofc i might be wrong and they are just taken out of loot or drop rate has been significantly lowered but i dont think that is the case.

I'll be the first to admit we've had our share of stumbles tying to adjust to loot 2.0, although at every opportunity we have tried to improve and adjust loot drops as well as mining finds. We will continue to adjust these as we are able should the need arise.

As far as drop rates being lowered though, we've done our best to set all the drop rates to be the same as their loot 1.0 levels, although with any high ticket / rare / special items this might be the case where the problem is with the loot pool rather than the drop rate, similar to the vendors.

I have been doing some tests, pretty expensive by the way and i have not been able to loot any of the parts from lazidol or wasp queen. Its hard enough to get the baits for these creatures and wasp is fairly hard to kill too, but i am yet to see a part in loot.
so far i have killed around 100 lazidols ( i know its not a lot but hey its super expensive and i am doing my best) and around 50 wasp queens. I have gotten globals above the item tt value threshold, no luck and havnt got any hofs on them, hoping to see one soon to maybe see a part in the loot. I am also not the only one who is doing killign these creatures. There are others and i know the number of killed lazidols in past 2-3 weeks is around 200.

Another Cyrene player did send me a PM about some Lazidol related drops, and it's something that we we're already working out with MA.

So what I'll do is point MA to this forum thread, as well as go back to the beginning of the year and see not only how many times Lazidol was killed but also how many of what type of parts were looted.

If Kris could please clarify that it is possible to loot these parts it would satisfy my concern, but if it isnt or it is impossible to tell, then maybe Cyrene should review mechanics behind how loot 2.0 works in regards of this?

I can only verify what has already happened in the reports, I have to contact MA to verify that these are in the pool and able to drop.

If i am right and these items dont drop as often or at all as previously did and it is a fault of loot 2.0 mechanics i have a couple of suggestions/workarounds.

*lower tt value of these items (and introduce shrapnel or nanocubes into recipe to compensate), or introduce alternate items.
*increase hp fo the wasp and lazidol. Could increase even 10fold if that helps to loot these items

These may not be best solutions but something that came to mind without not much brainstorming.

I think these are some good, simple solutions that might help the situation, but we'll talk to MA first to see if there isn't a hidden problem we haven't yet seen.

Does this make sense? What does forum think? What devs think?

More or less, I'm interested to hear what other players think about this.

P.S.
While you at it Kris, can you spawn me some Dukes please?

I've been really busy this 1st part of the year but I do plan to be in game more, even if it's sort of at random, to spawn some creatures.

Cheers,
Kris

 

[sokolade]

Much love to you Kris!

Gonna be waiting for updates here

 

[Sully]

On a similar note it looks like Xent Tech Light Rifle X2 or Xent Tech Light Rifle X3 have not been looted since August. These used to drop on a weekly basis. Are these still in loot? Maybe they aren't appearing as rare messages anymore?

 

[Kris | Cyrene]

Hey Sully,

On a similar note it looks like Xent Tech Light Rifle X2 or Xent Tech Light Rifle X3 have not been looted since August. These used to drop on a weekly basis. Are these still in loot? Maybe they aren't appearing as rare messages anymore?

I'll add these to the list to talk to MA about as well as check through this year's reports to see if there's any information to glean.

Cheers,
Kris

 

[San]

*increase hp fo the wasp and lazidol. Could increase even 10fold if that helps to loot these items

I think this is noteworthy for any similar situation, most prominently those things in Zyn'Dos which people are desperate to get, but also for future developments. I'd propose as a generalized rule or custom, make the tt value of rare/special items match the average cost to take down the respective creature. It can still be a rare drop, but it wouldn't make things dependent on luck squared, i.e. on a rare hit and a multiplier. Less frustration this way and potentially more pursuers.

 

[bella]

I dont like idea to change current tt of crystals , it make us who made crystal like we wasted time and money, for future mission i agree you can make new stuff , as for hp of lazidol and wasp queen you can increase hp but if you increase mob dmg alot ppl wont be able to kill boss so it good only for ubers.

 

[sokolade]

I dont like idea to change current tt of crystals , it make us who made crystal like we wasted time and money, for future mission i agree you can make new stuff , as for hp of lazidol and wasp queen you can increase hp but if you increase mob dmg alot ppl wont be able to kill boss so it good only for ubers.

You didnt understand or didnt read it right! I suggested workarounds so the missions would follow current meta. And they are not perfect by any means however i suggested to increase health on those mobs to simply be able to loot high tt rare stuff easier or have different tt values for those parts but change recipe to include something perishable like nanocubes/ammo/whatever else to compensate.

Suggestions were made just to show that there can be some kind of work arounds for current troubled missions due to loot 2.0 meta. But reason i made the post is not to change or look for workarounds but to show and inquire about how cyrene works in loot 2.0 in a bid to help Kris out with future planet development. Planet is tiny but with massive potential, yet while at this stage all small isues harm cyrene more than similar issues would harm calypso for example.

 

[Neo Jr XL]

Hey Sully,



I'll add these to the list to talk to MA about as well as check through this year's reports to see if there's any information to glean.

Cheers,
Kris

And clarity and direction on ARC badges and vendors will be much apprenticed as well. Vendor 3 has never been stocked since inception, Vendor 2 is missing harness and cap since price changes, having same currency requirements for for UL and L weapons has no sense, on top of mats not dropping at all. Camping was bad, but changing the currency and not adding it to loot pool is not much better. In the past at least some could get, now it seems it's just there as a carrot you will never get.

 

[San]

...change recipe to include something perishable like nanocubes/ammo/whatever else to compensate.

In case of a resulting unlimited item of high maximum tt value (e.g. Neff's Stim Pack) it could simply be handed out not fully repaired, precedents exist at least since Bukin's Blade. No need for a filler beforehand, i.m.o.

 

[sokolade]

In case of a resulting unlimited item of high maximum tt value (e.g. Neff's Stim Pack) it could simply be handed out not fully repaired, precedents exist at least since Bukin's Blade. No need for a filler beforehand, i.m.o.

It doesnt matter.
What matters is that realistically you can’t loot rares on cyrene at this time at all.

 

[Justine]

Receipe are good atm from my view.
The problem is from loot 2.0 .
What MA stated about loot 2.0 :
Best efficiency weapon will give you more loot value (up to 7%)
Best DPP gear will give you a best loot composition
At least they said we have to kill enought mob in row for generate a good "loot event" for a chance to get a hof.

Problem with Lazidol and Empi wasp queen : there is a timer between each kill. So we can't never reach the famous loot event. Last time, with a friend we killed 30 Empi queen in a row. It took almost 3hours for 30 kill, this is reaally bad. Normally, with our gear, 30 kill should be around 30min with time to go back to the summoner.

As i understound, Summoner should be more close to the spawn area and the timer should be removed.

What will happen, if they change receipe, for players who have Lazidol or empi rare items in their storage ?

I think the key is on the "Loot event".
2 Empi was queen parts was looted in since loot 2.0.
1 part in event when lilmc spawned 15/20 empi queen in a row (i think it's not fair to see that, because a player who never did any effort on the epic mission got the rare item)
1 part was looted by myself, in the 2nd kill after 1 month of 30killl in a row per week.

I don't know if i'm clear, but withtout the timer, i'm sure it will be better.

About Lazidol, i don't know, i didn't killed it since in loot 2.0.

 

[sokolade]

Receipe are good atm from my view.
The problem is from loot 2.0 .
What MA stated about loot 2.0 :
Best efficiency weapon will give you more loot value (up to 7%)
Best DPP gear will give you a best loot composition
At least they said we have to kill enought mob in row for generate a good "loot event" for a chance to get a hof.

Problem with Lazidol and Empi wasp queen : there is a timer between each kill. So we can't never reach the famous loot event. Last time, with a friend we killed 30 Empi queen in a row. It took almost 3hours for 30 kill, this is reaally bad. Normally, with our gear, 30 kill should be around 30min with time to go back to the summoner.

As i understound, Summoner should be more close to the spawn area and the timer should be removed.

What will happen, if they change receipe, for players who have Lazidol or empi rare items in their storage ?

I think the key is on the "Loot event".
2 Empi was queen parts was looted in since loot 2.0.
1 part in event when lilmc spawned 15/20 empi queen in a row (i think it's for fair to see that, because a player who never did any effort on the epic mission got the rare item)
1 part was looted by myself, in the 2nd kill after 1 month of 30killl in a row per week.

I don't know if i'm clear, but withtout the timer, i'm sure it will be better.

About Lazidol, i don't know, i didn't killed it since in loot 2.0.

You are pretty clear.
And if you are right then the fix is even easier. But i think its the way loot 2.0 works. Since Efficiency and DPS directly affect the loot. However i would be willing to try, if they remove cooldown for Tracker (wasp queen NPC) and move it closer to where wasp spawns, i could do a 200 - 500 kills run asap.

 

[sokolade]

As i understound, Summoner should be more close to the spawn area and the timer should be removed.

@Kris | Cyrene
Is this something you could do for us? at least for a test?

What will happen, if they change receipe, for players who have Lazidol or empi rare items in their storage ?

This shouldnt be a problem, as you can get compensated in ped for the lost tt value IF they change tt value of rares. Just like they did with some old stuff on caly

 

[krasko]

Just make all such parts repairable, and let it drop in lower values.
This wont affect the missions and current rare parts owners.

 

[sokolade]

Just make all such parts repairable, and let it drop in lower values.
This wont affect the missions and current rare parts owners.

I like that, however - non-stackables cannot be refined :/

Still, there is tons of ways to fix this. We need to find what is the problem in first place, is it loot 2.0 or looting events or combination of both. One thing for sure, i wasnt able to hof on wasp or lazidol and now i have killed lots of omicrons too and i am yet to hof on them. Omicrons used to hof a lot more before loot 2.0, i am not saying this is broken but it definitely is much different and thats why i worry that loot 2.0 has a massive impact on Cyrene.

@Kris | Cyrene if there is any way i can test this out let me know. I just want Cyrene to be fixed

 

[krasko]

I like that, however - non-stackables cannot be refined :/

Still, there is tons of ways to fix this. We need to find what is the problem in first place, is it loot 2.0 or looting events or combination of both. One thing for sure, i wasnt able to hof on wasp or lazidol and now i have killed lots of omicrons too and i am yet to hof on them. Omicrons used to hof a lot more before loot 2.0, i am not saying this is broken but it definitely is much different and thats why i worry that loot 2.0 has a massive impact on Cyrene.

@Kris | Cyrene if there is any way i can test this out let me know. I just want Cyrene to be fixed

It truly appears to be value related.
Tanhok amber which is 5 ped tt has 5 drops in Feb.
In loot 1.0 Tanhok amber was as rare as the other stuff.
Now we can see improved drop rate (2-3 per year up to 5-6 monthly).

PP announced that all such drop rates should be improved, but it seems to only works for low tt items.

 

[Kris | Cyrene]

Hey guys,

There's a lot to go over here so I'll just go through and answer as I can:

I think this is noteworthy for any similar situation, most prominently those things in Zyn'Dos which people are desperate to get, but also for future developments. I'd propose as a generalized rule or custom, make the tt value of rare/special items match the average cost to take down the respective creature. It can still be a rare drop, but it wouldn't make things dependent on luck squared, i.e. on a rare hit and a multiplier. Less frustration this way and potentially more pursuers.

Seems like sound reasoning going forward, although I don't think it can be retroactively applied in this case.

And clarity and direction on ARC badges and vendors will be much apprenticed as well.

I'll answer what I can but a lot of these things aren't controlled by us, we have to differ to Mindark to resolve them.

Vendor 3 has never been stocked since inception,

Initally after it's release there was a big push to stock it, but then there was the whole issue with the tier 1 and tier 2 vendors.

Since then we've been focusing on getting the tier 1 and tier 2 vendors inline before we move back to tier 3.

Vendor 2 is missing harness and cap since price changes,

This is has been worked on and should be ready to roll out for the next PP VU.

having same currency requirements for for UL and L weapons has no sense, on top of mats not dropping at all. Camping was bad, but changing the currency and not adding it to loot pool is not much better. In the past at least some could get, now it seems it's just there as a carrot you will never get.

For the drop rates, it's similar to the issue with the Lazidol / Wasp Queen loot, this is part of the loot that appears to be having a hard time with loot 2.0 and is under investigation with MA.

However, the different drops/combines for L and UL weapons will be different for the next PP VU.

In case of a resulting unlimited item of high maximum tt value (e.g. Neff's Stim Pack) it could simply be handed out not fully repaired, precedents exist at least since Bukin's Blade. No need for a filler beforehand, i.m.o.

While this solution can work with some quest turn-ins, this will NOT work with refinements if I understand correctly.

Problem with Lazidol and Empi wasp queen : there is a timer between each kill. So we can't never reach the famous loot event. Last time, with a friend we killed 30 Empi queen in a row. It took almost 3hours for 30 kill, this is reaally bad. Normally, with our gear, 30 kill should be around 30min with time to go back to the summoner.

As i understound, Summoner should be more close to the spawn area and the timer should be removed.

Which goes together with this:

@Kris | Cyrene
Is this something you could do for us? at least for a test?

This is something we can see about lowering or removing, but it will have to be discussed internally and then with MA.

What will happen, if they change receipe, for players who have Lazidol or empi rare items in their storage ?

Which goes with this:

This shouldnt be a problem, as you can get compensated in ped for the lost tt value IF they change tt value of rares. Just like they did with some old stuff on caly

We do NOT want to adjust the TT of any currently existing items.

I think the key is on the "Loot event".
2 Empi was queen parts was looted in since loot 2.0.
1 part in event when lilmc spawned 15/20 empi queen in a row (i think it's for fair to see that, because a player who never did any effort on the epic mission got the rare item)
1 part was looted by myself, in the 2nd kill after 1 month of 30killl in a row per week.

I'm leaning towards this being something to do with loot 2.0, but we're already working on this with MA to find the root of the issue.

Just make all such parts repairable, and let it drop in lower values.
This wont affect the missions and current rare parts owners.

This could be an interesting change, adjusting the type of time rather than the TT, however, I think that the 1st thing we need to see is the loot parameters for these items with loot 2.0 before anything gets changed in that way.

I like that, however - non-stackables cannot be refined :/

Still, there is tons of ways to fix this. We need to find what is the problem in first place, is it loot 2.0 or looting events or combination of both. One thing for sure, i wasnt able to hof on wasp or lazidol and now i have killed lots of omicrons too and i am yet to hof on them. Omicrons used to hof a lot more before loot 2.0, i am not saying this is broken but it definitely is much different and thats why i worry that loot 2.0 has a massive impact on Cyrene.

@Kris | Cyrene if there is any way i can test this out let me know. I just want Cyrene to be fixed

Exactly right, there's a lot of good ideas in this thread, but we need to identify the root of the problem before we start making changes/adjustments outside of loot parameters.

As for helping out to test: when I have some updates from MA about this and changes are made outside of a VU I'll post it up.

It truly appears to be value related.
Tanhok amber which is 5 ped tt has 5 drops in Feb.
In loot 1.0 Tanhok amber was as rare as the other stuff.
Now we can see improved drop rate (2-3 per year up to 5-6 monthly).

PP announced that all such drop rates should be improved, but it seems to only works for low tt items.

This can help point us in the right direction, I'll make sure that MA knows how Tanhok Amber changed in a positive way and we can contrast and compare.

I hope this answered everyone's questions, feel free to continue providing comments/questions/feedback.

Cheers,
Kris

 

[Haruto Rat]

I like that, however - non-stackables cannot be refined :/

Not really so.
All those amps and faps that are refined into parts for upgrade missions (A10x series, EMT kits); they need to be fully repaired before refining but that would be the least problem.
Also, there are repairable non-stackable animal parts that go into DNA refining recipes - Longu Plate, different skulls etc.

So krasko's suggestion might work.