Shopping Booths

[HardWrath]

I was thinking the same.

My analysis you find generalized and abstract was meant to shed light on the fact that you cannot grow a sustainable population that leads to a healthy economy on a low population planet through shops alone. If you'd like to take a band-aid policy approach to economics, stimulate away.

You can step down from your soapbox. I understand the economic principles that you are talking about however, as it applies to Planet Cyrene in the virtual economy created by MindArk, it largely doesn't apply.

Over the last almost 10 years in this game, my economic involvement is extensive so let me explain this to you because this is very easy to understand.

When a player who is dependent on (L) or consumable items for game play, can not find what they need on Cyrene, they go to another planet, usually Calypso which has a more robust economy. When they leave, their loot system turnover along with their purchases and sales leaves with them, thereby decreasing the Cyrene economy.

Seeing as how auction listings are limited to 7 days, carry extensive fees, and many things go unsold, for a lot of people, utilizing the auction on Cyrene is not viable simply because they need a quick sale in order to free up PED to buy new (L) items.

Now we enter the part of the equation where Shops come into play. Because so many will take their looted (L) items back to Calypso to sell, when that hunter or miner on Cyrene does manage to free up PED, there has to be something for them to buy. With shops that are stocked by weapon and mining tool crafters, there always is stuff for them to buy which then allows them to stay on Cyrene and continue cycling PEDs locally, which in-turn does increase the Cyrene economy.

Moreover, with steady shop sales for that weapon/tool crafter, they end up going to Cyrene to craft on Cyrene, and in so doing, end up buying and consuming stackable resources found on Cyrene, thereby completing the cycle between hunters, miners, and crafters which further increases the Cyrene economy.

Without shops, Crafters are restricted to only listing on the Cyrene auction which many of them avoid.

In the early stages of a planet's developing economy, shops play an integral role when in the hands of the right kind of player. With a more developed and robust economy, such as Calypso's, shops play a more peripheral and incremental role catering to certain niches.

You like general economic principles so hopefully you will appreciate this one: Supply Creates Demand.

Having a continuous and reliable supply of good (L) weapons and tools in Cyrene shops will create more demand for those items. As more and more people understand where on Cyrene to get these things, more and more will utilize them, with each person playing their part in the larger picture of loot system turnover, consuming and looting stackables, facilitating crafters, etc. This all moves Cyrene in the direction of being a self-contained economic ecosystem in and of itself.

 

[Nuance Inde]

I understand what you are trying to convey with the accessibility of (L) weapons / tools. However 'Says Law' as you've quoted, "Supply Creates Demand" - does not always hold true if there is no demand from the hunter/miners output. You are correct in the assumption that supply might facilitate the production of goods, which in turn could lead to the production of other goods.

Simply put there needs to be an exchange of the goods obtained by the hunters / miners on Planet Cyrene and not just the production of manufactured goods from Crafters. An example taken for instance from Planet Arkadia, exist not only mining companies but dedicated daily traders whom facilitate the flow of goods to auction. Crafters are able to purchase in bulk allowing them to produce goods (e.g. items, tools, weapons). Therefore, while a shop might assist in facilitating demand, I do not believe it alone can create the robust economies you witness on Calypso or Arkadia. If this were true, Rocktropia would not seem like such a desolate rock.

A more in-depth opinion,
While the planet partners might be responsible for certain game mechanics and marketing, the development of the economy is ultimately the responsibility of the community. Economic planning counsels, dedicated supply shipment runs, events, market swaps, support initiatives. These are all functions at the disposal of players that would help us in building a supportive and productive model that in-turn would lead to a more populated and productive player base.

 

[HardWrath]

I understand what you are trying to convey with the accessibility of (L) weapons / tools. However 'Says Law' as you've quoted, "Supply Creates Demand" - does not always hold true if there is no demand from the hunter/miners output. You are correct in the assumption that supply might facilitate the production of goods, which in turn could lead to the production of other goods.

"Might?" ...well, if there was no demand for such things then Cyrene (and all of Entropia) would have a larger problem, wouldn't it

Simply put there needs to be an exchange of the goods obtained by the hunters / miners on Planet Cyrene and not just the production of manufactured goods from Crafters.

The exchange of goods between participants of all three professions is exactly what shops help to facilitate.

An example taken for instance from Planet Arkadia, exist not only mining companies but dedicated daily traders whom facilitate the flow of goods to auction. Crafters are able to purchase in bulk allowing them to produce goods (e.g. items, tools, weapons). Therefore, while a shop might assist in facilitating demand, I do not believe it alone can create the robust economies you witness on Calypso or Arkadia. If this were true, Rocktropia would not seem like such a desolate rock.

First of all, there aren't "mining companies". What video game are you playing? In EU there is only individual players who mine. Regarding traders who buy and then resell stackable resources, in order for them to be present, there first has to be a population large enough to support them, otherwise there is no point in them standing there. When they are there, they are an asset to the economy because they provide instant liquidity to the miners who need it most.

Second of all, no one anywhere said that a shop alone can facilitate the creation of a robust economy. It's simply an economic stepping stone that aids in helping the economy evolve from point A to point B.

A more in-depth opinion,
While the planet partners might be responsible for certain game mechanics and marketing, the development of the economy is ultimately the responsibility of the community. Economic planning counsels, dedicated supply shipment runs, events, market swaps, support initiatives. These are all functions at the disposal of players that would help us in building a supportive and productive model that in-turn would lead to a more populated and productive player base.

Help us? Who is us?

Furthermore, seeing as how this "game" hinges upon being a Real Cash a Economy, when you are talking about economic development, you are specifically talking about game development which is exactly the responsibility of the Planet Partner in conjunction with MindArk and not the community. We are here to participate in what the developers create using the tools provided by them. The burden of responsibility for economic development does not fall onto the player base. The responsibility specifically falls into Cyrene and MindArk to develop the economy with and through our participation.

"Economic planning counsels, dedicated supply shipment runs, events, market swaps, support initiatives." These are all things that players can engage in if they wish. We however have a sum total of zero obligation to do so. The developers are the only ones with any obligation and responsibility to develop the game and it's economy.

 

[Nuance Inde]

You've made some valid points that have expanded the scope of the initial ideology of why shops may benefit a planet and ultimately the overall well being of a healthy economy. I'd just like to clarify something I mentioned in my previous post.

First of all, there aren't "mining companies". What video game are you playing? In EU there is only individual players who mine.

OpEdit: "Mining Company" - I stand corrected there may not exist Mining Companies (plural). Yes I play Entropia Universe Online - what I meant to say was a Mining Company (singular).

Quite ingenious actually, and Neil Stockton would attest to this claim as he owns and operates the 'Greenleaf Mining Company' based on Arkadia. I chose to include Neil's company as an example because it employees thinking outside the micro aspects of a "me" universe into the macro aspects of a "we" universe. Even though Mind Ark has deployed a platform that ultimately caters to individual game play, many folks fail to see things on a much larger scale and the possibilities that can be obtained through coordinated initiatives. Not only does his business model create supply to cater to crafting demand but, it also employees players on a regular basis providing the necessary equipment to extract minerals and turn in the resource finds for shared profitability.

While players can ask the administration for stepping stones in bridging the gaps, therein also lies the ability for "us" the community of Cyrene to bridge the gaps through active participation and thinking outside the boundaries of traditional thought within an MMORPG.

 

[sluggo]

Your thinking is unfortunately a bit one dimensional. Nobody ever said a shop was the holy grail to planet saviorship, just that it is possibly a good step in the right direction. As far as the comment about if one does not spend all their time there they should not have any input. It's elitist mentality mindsets like that which kill planets. Oh if you don't live here 24/7 then you have absolutely no say in how we do stuff. I understand that if someone lives on caly and may visit cyrene once every three months for a day or two that yes, they should not have a ton of say so but to just say if you are not permanent here we dont care what you think, kind of kills any reason for folks to want to come here in the first place. Like it or not, we need new people here, which ultimately means. more people here.

If all the 'locals' were such a huge asset then we would not have this economy problem now would we? Them and their elitist clique would support the entire planet right? That's not the case, and new blood is what is needed. Having shops to allow the new blood to experience a better experience than what you have so far provided might be the thing that helps build the economy. Having shops to allow the 'locals' to enjoy the planet more and be able to do more of the stuff they already do to support the planet, may help build the economy as well.

I get it, some like the idea of shops, others don't. Those who like it will probably support them, those who don't, won't. So far you have just criticized, since you know so much about economy and such, how about posting some of your suggestions on how Team Cyrene, can help boost the economy?

People like answers, not just excuses.

sluggo

 

[Paul Jetman Masters]

i would like to see shops. im limited to (L) weapons and even tho i can loot a lot on cyrene they do run out eventually and the AH rarely if ever stocks weapons i'm interested in, meaning i have to leave either to Ark or Caly... The problem is once i leave i tend to spend a week or so on that planet which would mean loss of cyrene turnover

 

[sluggo]

That's the thing Paul, people are not going to leave just to come right back with a new gun, they are going to tend to stay where they went to for a bit. If a store stocked crafting materials as well it could help the crafter find what they needed to 'stay' and do their crafting, instead of going to another planet and cycling the ped through it's system and letting it's owners get the income off it.

It's not one big thing that will change it all, but several little things that eventually will make a big change for Cyrene. Stores is one of those littler things that for many, would be a significant change for the better I believe.

What gun do you use, or series? I got some from drops when I hunt here (typically the laser based) and would be happy to sell them to you if they are in your range.

sluggo

 

[Paul Jetman Masters]

That's the thing Paul, people are not going to leave just to come right back with a new gun, they are going to tend to stay where they went to for a bit. If a store stocked crafting materials as well it could help the crafter find what they needed to 'stay' and do their crafting, instead of going to another planet and cycling the ped through it's system and letting it's owners get the income off it.

It's not one big thing that will change it all, but several little things that eventually will make a big change for Cyrene. Stores is one of those littler things that for many, would be a significant change for the better I believe.

What gun do you use, or series? I got some from drops when I hunt here (typically the laser based) and would be happy to sell them to you if they are in your range.

sluggo

Laser pistol is my main, anything around around the skill level 35 (due to only lvl 40 ranged laser) but i can use most types as all my hit/dam are all above 30.

 

[sluggo]

Oh, I am nowhere near that yet. Im about Lv 15. Ive gotten various fang, carbine rifle etc that typically you need Lv 7 ish to use. The stuff that can fall from miner bots and mobs in that level.

If you had a use for something that much lower level Id happily save them up for you. ( HAH listen to me, talking like I actually been getting anything decent in loot lately hehe).

This goes for anyone, if you see me feel free to ask and I can tell you which weapons I may have in storage.

Thank you
sluggo

 

[Neil Stockton]

We could define a healthy economy as a situation where all players are able to do their desired activities easily and for a reasonable cost. There's no single element that will produce a "good" economy; there are many elements in the chain or cycle through which peds flow. Shops in the hands of good players can help clear out some of the biggest bottlenecks in the cycle (like 24/7 availability of weapons).

Another feature some have been pushing MA to develop is a "reverse shopkeeper". A buyer would set one of these up to buy specific resources at set prices. So it would be similar to auction orders, but having the same benefits as a shop: the ability to trade small quantities, place "orders" without fees, and leave orders open for extended periods of time.

From my experience watching Arkadia grow, if an economy is not healthy, it's ultimately not so much the fault of the players, as a deficiency somewhere in the planet's infrastructure. For example, a shortage of minerals probably isn't due to miners being lazy, it's due to bad terrain, poor design of mineral fields, too many mobs, or even an unfavorable mining loot system that is demotivating miners. Of course, the player attitudes and teamwork do have a huge effect. For instance, a recurring problem for Ark has been the large number of visitors who believe that all loot must always be sold on Calypso, even materials that have no business being taken to Calypso, resulting in lack of resources available to the crafters who need it. And a shortage of minerals could be due to crafters being unwilling to pay high enough prices. A shortage of weapons could be due to lack of shops or it could be due to obsession over "eco" driving down prices of weapons to the point where hunters just TT the weapons they get.

What I'm trying to say is it's great to promote teamwork and get people to work and trade for the sake of the economy, this is important... but don't neglect the infrastructure of the economy either (e.g. shops and booths). Calypso years ago some big mistakes releasing hundreds of shops and malls to get fast cash resulting in many unoccupied shops, so MA has way overreacted and is really hesitant to allow new planets to release shops in anything approaching sufficient numbers. So... Cyrene has to fight extra hard to get enough shops and booths in game. You won't be able to release too many, so try for as many as you can get.

 

[sluggo]

The reverse storekeeper sounds like a nice idea too but unless a fee is thrown in at top for 're assigning' the keeper what to buy, I can see MA balking because it'd be difficult to figure out how to get their hands into the money flow.

I do like that idea though and on that, if stuff starts happening that brings more people to spend more time here on Cyrene, we might have our traders hanging out more often, longer - later hours and that is a viable venue to peddle wares too.

The first phase I guess you could call it, is getting stuff 'moving' loot, minerals, crafted goods, get them ped circulating, then the economy will start to shape up. It won't be an overnight thing, this may take a while but if we get it moving in the right direction then everyone will benefit, and the sacrifices we may have to make in the beginning will pay off well later on.

Just my hopes and dreams. Nothing to see here folks, move along

sluggo

 

[jetsina]

Well, if you think MA would balk because of not getting in on the money flow from the reverse storekeeper idea, then why have we now got universal and planet-wide trade chat channels which can bring ppl together for free?

Actually I suspect that on deadish planets, potential buyers and sellers even stop repeating, repeating, repeating their wishes after a while because nobody responds, and any ppl who have found each other can simply PM each other if their trading becomes regular. The result is dead trade channels too (AND it doesn't even cost anything except time).

I think we need something like an SMS-length permanent shout box/channel for trading or other info, where each player can write a short text which they can edit over time to keep it up to date if they wish.

By the way, I haven't been active on Cyrene for so long now that unsold stuff from auction has now been returned to my inventory while I'm elsewhere. Now that's a big LOL - I stand even less chance of selling yellow crytals etc on Arkadia (and I tend not to carry stuff around in space almost on principle).

On a postive note, it's really good to see an active discussion suddenly here, but I also think the PP has a higher responsibility for making sure the economy can run. We have provided many suggestions over the 'years'....

 

[HardWrath]

many folks fail to see things on a much larger scale and the possibilities that can be obtained through coordinated initiatives.

I know a few things about coordinated economic initiatives in EU so let me tell you something.... They don't work long term and the reasons are:

- Loot swing dynamics
- Player attrition
- The human factor (from an economic perspective) people will do what best serves their own interests and not the interests of the "collective" group.

I speak from experience here because before Planet Cyrene even existed, I built and ran the largest group of societies in the history of this game. It was 11 combined societies and 750+ active members. At the core of it was an entrepreneurial centric society consisting of many of the top-volume high-level crafters and resource traders of the time. We owned shops on every floor of every mall in-game. We captured the bulk of all ores sold on Calypso and on CND (FOMA). 90% of the active shops on CND were owned by us. That entrepreneurial society was by far #1 for crafting volume. Also in our group of societies were the #1 and #2 mining societies (by volume) supplying ores to our crafters and traders. The rest of the societies in that group were hunting centric. It was a self contained economic ecosystem that leveraged the synergies found between people of different professions in-game. Beyond the economic aspects, that group was it's own community in and of itself.

It's safe to say that the in-game economic structure that I built was larger (both by number of players and economic turnover) then all of Cyrene. I built all of that simply for fun and to see if it can be done... And it can be done however it can not be sustained long term.

Specific reasons:
- (Loot swing dynamics) Your three top crafters temporarily stop crafting because of a change in crafting... Or your top miners stop mining also because of a change in mining dynamics.
- (Player attrition) your irreplaceable event promoter quits EU due to spousal problems
- (Human factor) your ore traders and miners stop selling to your crafters and start selling to another crafter who is willing to pay above the going rate for those ores and enmatters.

As soon as you iron out one kink in the supply chain, another pops up.

All of that aside, I happen to be the first shop owner in EU, with the first ever open shop which had the first ever shop sale in the history of the game. Needless to say, I do know a few things about shops and their impact on the game economy.

I'm not here to brag, but when I share my opinion about how shops would help the Cyrene economy get off the ground, hopefully it carries some weight.

 

[Neil Stockton]

The reverse storekeeper sounds like a nice idea too but unless a fee is thrown in at top for 're assigning' the keeper what to buy, I can see MA balking because it'd be difficult to figure out how to get their hands into the money flow.

The way I evision it: you specify the items you want to buy, max quantities for each, and fill the NPC up with peds. A fee would be assessed in the same way as the ordinary shopkeeper: each sale has an additional fee tacked on at the moment of sale, but unlike auction the fee can go down to 1 pec, making "tiny" purchases viable.

 

[sluggo]

The one pec would make things an order of magnitude better. Both selling and buying in the RS analogy above. Id love to see it available in shops only / first.
THAT right there is the killer on smaller quantity sales, because the auction fees can eat up a huge percentage of any profit on low MU items so now the seller has to dump 100 ped worth of stuff just to get a tiny fraction of a percent profit back after auction fees.

a one pec changeability would allow a shopkeeper to hone their prices much more closely to the market, keeping competitive AND the key thing, sell smaller units, which will help the person who doesn't NEED 100 ped of gizzard grease, but only 10 ped worth, and would like it appropriately priced.

Hardwrath it sounds like a number of your problems were poor planning, or lack of flexibility, which would have it's root in poor planning. Yes they are valid issues that you brought up, but not something that can't be easily worked around. No system is perfect and a person / business has to be adaptable if they expect to survive.

Yes the dynamics of a shop can and will change from a 'dead' to an active planet but those dynamics can easily be adapted to and made to work. Just ask the folks now who have successful shops, they can tell you that.

Another way to look at might be, if I want to spend 500 dollars or so on a shop and it fails, hey, it's my money, I know the risks going in, and at least in the short run, the cash influx benefits the planet a bit hopefully.

sluggo

 

[HardWrath]

Hardwrath it sounds like a number of your problems were poor planning, or lack of flexibility, which would have it's root in poor planning. Yes they are valid issues that you brought up, but not something that can't be easily worked around. No system is perfect and a person / business has to be adaptable if they expect to survive.

sluggo

Well, no. Inflexibility would have come into play if one person, or even the pooled funds of numerous people owned all the assets in place. What we had in place was a partnership of people.

What you are forgetting is that coordinated economic efforts in EU are not the same as real life. In real life a business is an actual entity, with paid employees. Partnerships between businesses have enforceable contracts that aren't started and stopped on a whim. Shops in malls have contracts in place that restrict the number of same-industry competitors. In real life supply lines and distribution channels are carefully controlled. More importantly, the cost + complexity to enter any specific industry is insurmountable to most.

In EU, anyone can pick up a Finder and go mine, competing with every other miner and unless they TT their ores, they become a competitor to everyone else selling the same stuff. Moreover, MindArk controls the outcome of events in EU, especially pertaining to loot returns. Everything in EU revolves around loot returns. Every player is a competitor to every other player in multiple ways. Everyone is trying to source and then sell the same things.

Speaking from experience is quite a bit different then speaking from theory

EU is not set up to support coordinated player-run market control efforts and if it was then we would have seen monopolies form a long time ago and I would have been at the head of the largest one.

Game play in EU is very individualized.

 

[sluggo]

Ive seen some folks run what you are calling 'monopolies' and are very successful at it.
It's not about controlling the market, it's about learning how to use it to your advantage. Yes there IS a difference.

In the real world, competition is very keen as well, Apple.. meet Samsung. Ford, meet Chevrolet. That's not theory.

sluggo

 

[Kris | Cyrene]

Hey all,

The shopping booths will be sold at the Hard Launch (currently planned for Q4 of 2014) and not before then. It is our plan to also have some apartments ready for that time as well.

There have already been some big changes to Planet Cyrene and more to come for Hard Launch (you can check out our marketing post HERE and our October VU Preview HERE).

Cheers,
Kris

 

[sluggo]

Hey all,

The shopping booths will be sold at the Hard Launch (currently planned for Q4 of 2014) and not before then. It is our plan to also have some apartments ready for that time as well.

Kris

Can you give us an idea how they will be sold? Auction to highest bidder, first come first serve, raffle style? Will all the booths be up at once or trickle out one or two at a time? How many total are you planning, roughly.
Thanks
sluggo

 

[Kris | Cyrene]

Hey sluggo,

Can you give us an idea how they will be sold? Auction to highest bidder, first come first serve, raffle style? Will all the booths be up at once or trickle out one or two at a time? How many total are you planning, roughly.

We're still finalizing the best way to do this, as well as how many will be sold, at least 5 as of the time I'm writing this from what I understand. When there is more info I will post it up, more than likely closer to Hard Launch.

Cheers,
Kris