The current Token reward weapons

[Lykke TheNun]

There are 7 items (weapons) to be found in the current Token reward system from 4 vendors found in the arc area.

You can see the names and stats of them here:

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[jetsina]

Great to see some stats of what the tokens can currently get, six of which are weapons it seems (+1 fap), but crucial to (L) is the tt. Can you provide this too please?
There is also a difference in terms of how long items will last (those which use ammo and those which don't), but we can take that into account...

Edit: I also see that whoever grabbed the screenies isn't maxed for many of the items, so this is something else individuals cannot currently know beforehand. Can we have a showcase soon maybe in game so we can individually see our relative maxing?

Especially the fap looks like it may need quite a bit of skill to be maxed on it, so can you also provide info on the decay per click?
Many thanks for the info

 

[Xandra]

Hi,​

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There are 7 items (weapons) to be found in the current Token reward system from 4 vendors found in the arc area.

Have to say I'm a bit disappointed. The Psy-Sword is quite worse compared to the standard Caly TT sword, which is even unlimited. And then the ways better Arkadian and NI swords are not even considered yet ...

This way it doesn't make much sense collecting 300 Imperial Tokens for it - it would need insanely high dam/Pec values to make it worth the hassle.

Might be that Cyrene wants to go a path with lower dam/sec weapons? But how would this work when ways better gear can just be imported? Cannot help but feeling I'm misunderstanding something ...

But I have to say, I was very impressed yesterday, and it was a joy and an honor to be meeting you! My best wishes to both of you and to the team, I'm sure you'll get things going!

2012-08-01 12:46:34 [Local] [Xandra] There's no way to show the data of the weapons we get for imperial tokens, right? Would be so much helpful determining if they are worth the grind ...
2012-08-01 12:47:22 [Local] [Cyrene Official Ed3] I will let the team know
2012-08-01 12:47:38 [Local] [Cyrene Official Ed3] Maybe we can post it on the forums until we release the info on the server
2012-08-01 12:47:49 [Local] [Cyrene Official Ed3] nice comment Xandra
2012-08-01 12:48:09 [Local] [Xandra] you know, 300 tokens is a lot - and we don't know what we'll get for it ...
2012-08-01 12:49:10 [Local] [Cyrene Official Ed3] fair enough
 
2012-08-01 13:34:59 [Local] [Cyrene Official Lykke] Xandra - there's a picture with the 7 token reward items on the forum now here:
2012-08-01 13:35:08 [Local] [Cyrene Official Lykke] http://cyreneforum.com/threads/the-current-token-reward-weapons.759/
 
2012-08-01 13:35:42 [Local] [Cyrene Official Ed3] Nice work Lykke
2012-08-01 13:36:02 [Local] [Cyrene Official Lykke] =)
2012-08-01 13:36:03 [Local] [Cyrene Official Ed3] Xandra the Token reward stats are up on the forums
 
2012-08-01 13:44:04 [Local] [Xandra] To be honest, the improved Psy-Sword doesn't impress me at all. A basic TT sword of Calypso is ways better. Is there a mistake?
2012-08-01 13:45:15 [Local] [Cyrene Official Ed3] I will check
2012-08-01 13:46:19 [Local] [Cyrene Official Ed3] also please feel free to post on the forums all of your comments
2012-08-01 13:46:24 [Local] [Xandra] Castorian Enblade-A has 22 attacks, and a dam of 10 - 20
2012-08-01 13:47:00 [Local] [Cyrene Official Ed3] we also have to take into account that getting tokens will not be that hard in the future
2012-08-01 13:47:16 [Local] [Xandra] the imp. Psy sword had 22 attacks too, but only 7 - 14 dam
2012-08-01 13:47:37 [Local] [Cyrene Official Ed3] if a player buys most of the cheap tokens of the newbs who do the cheap dalies then the items can be had fairly cheap
2012-08-01 13:48:24 [Local] [Cyrene Official Ed3] its a way to get some MU for the new players to sell their daily tokens
2012-08-01 13:48:42 [Local] [Cyrene Official Ed3] also there will be other items that require other token ammounts
2012-08-01 13:48:57 [Local] [Cyrene Official Ed3] but we will work hard with MA to get the right balance
2012-08-01 13:49:56 [Local] [Cyrene Official Ed3] our best ally in all this is of course the players info which we always note and share with MA
2012-08-01 13:52:49 [Local] [Xandra] just saying that taking 300 tokens for this is overdone, and naming it "improved" is plainly wrong - this sword is worth not much
2012-08-01 13:53:04 [Local] [Cyrene Official Ed3] yes I am speaking to the team now
2012-08-01 13:53:09 [Local] [Xandra] the basic Caly TT sword is ways better
2012-08-01 13:53:36 [Local] [Xandra] I'm sure you'll get this done :)

(Chat log cleared of not thread related stuff. Have a look at the response time - 50 minutes after I asked for the stats they was on the forum!)

Have a good time!

PS & Edit:
Just see this is in the PvP area - are these PvP weapons for the hub?

 

[jetsina]

So, here we have examples of getting top marks and bottom marks all mixed together.
GREAT = response time to put up some requested information and provide some more general thoughts.
POOR = that the best info is out of a chat log written to an in-game avatar, not to some kind of blog or forum for all to benefit from, and that the items seem to be extremely poorly balanced, as Xandra mentions.

From the chat log we see that in the long run tokens are expected to provide some mu for new players, but it remains to be seen what rate is 'intended'. Without knowing the tt of the (L) items it is very hard to work out an expected relative value of them. Ed says:
if a player buys most of the cheap tokens of the newbs who do the cheap dalies then the items
can be had fairly cheap
So, what value do I need to assume for each token to get this statement to be true?
Given that some missions give tokens back for materials 'donated', the answer could be higher or lower than the donation itself, but how many people will participate in this if the answer really turns out to be lower?
Anyway, assuming just 5 pecs per token means 300 should have a value of 15 peds. Even that would be 'no deal' = crazy to buy one of these guns, unless the tt of the (L) weaps is somewhere close to this.

The problem is: it should not generally be possible to turn low tt into high tt value as a planet partner, as tt has to really be a solid reference for the ped currency. One way of providing more value for lower tt is to have stats that would make a maybe 5 ped tt gun worth 15 peds in practise to people wanting to buy it, but the stats shown don't justify this either!

It is easier with vehicles, as these (L) ones don't decay if driven carefully. It is quite possible to have a 50 pec item officially which may actually sell on the market for 10 times that or more - not so for weapons though.

I am thus struggling to find the balancing point for tokens and most of the trading missions (ores for tokens etc), considering some tokens can also be gained from the hunting dailies. If either side of the deal is almost worthless or just not worthwhile, then the effect of having the system in place will be nearly worthless too once it is running in a 'finalised' version.

OHHH -this is in PVP gear section???? Hub only?! Nah, can't be surely.... wrong section again?

Oh, maybe I give up... do you understand what I mean Ed?

 

[Lykke TheNun]

Oh, maybe I give up... do you understand what I mean Ed?

This mistake is all on me because when I posted it I misunderstood and first thought it was the Hub weapons. Shortly after posting I realized my mistake and changed my text in the first post but forgot I posted it in the PVP section. It is now moved to the weapon section, where it should have been.

Ed and Kris are trying to reply on the forums as much as time allows them. He had to meet me in game yesterday when Xandra met us and asked him questions, which he then tried to explain as well as possible - including giving me the pictures to post right away (because he already had them).

 

[jetsina]

Ahh, swift response Lykke and taking 'ownership' of the mistake - grats on both

The underlying questions remain, though: the tt values of the items, whether you as a pp can actually have a varied "token tt: item tt" rate on your offers, whether different items can be made to balance at all in desirablility if this is not the case etc.

I imagine you may not be able to disclose some of this officially, but it cannot mean that you refuse to tell people the tt value of an item before they buy it, so we can expect that info soon, yes? Also the skills required and the decay per click were points I made earlier, but this may not be so easy to answer, but this is not the major problem if the items don't look viable anyway at current token prices....

 

[Rathius]

You see 'too many tokens' for a reward;

I see.. I get these tokens for doing things I would normally do anyways. I just happen to be able to get an improved weapon out of it. Not to mention it is a whole lot better than giving out nova/blazar fragments that just killed any reason for me to ever do anything on Calypso. Oh look, I just slaughtered a bunch of creatures for you.. and you're giving me less fragments than I got during the process of the whole mission..... great.

And when it says Improved, it obviously means over the Cyrene TT variant. Just because it's not on the same playing field as a TT weapon on another planet does not mean it's not improved. I think you're reading far far to much into a name.

As for decay, that has and always will be player provided information. You can already see the decay, in the way MA intends to show it, as the Durability word value. And if you don't want to use a weapon until that information is available, well that's up to you. I for one was very excited to see what the ARC Improved HK was, and got it -without- any of that information available. And what did I do once I had it? I tested it and put that information on the wiki.

In the end, I was extremely pleased with the weapon, and it is very much an improved variant of the HK110. From my experience, worth the ~30 ped it's equivalent weapons would run on auction. Currently, the token price matches this too.

-----
At the very least, all I really see that needs changed with the whole reward token thing... is that clicking on the weapon in the list should pull up it's item info window so we can see what it is.

 

[jetsina]

It's pleasing that some people are pleased - it shows that the scales of balance are at least registering 'weight' on both sides as things stand .
Yes, clicking on an item in the list should simply open up the info window - I was wondering about why there is that strange info bot around when the info windows are fine in my opinion.

As far as the token system goes, yes it is nice to get your own gift occassionally from activity you might do anyway.
However, the crucial word is 'might'. Is Merkofen, for example, worth doing compared to other mobs, either with or without being in a daily mission? Yes, I know I would hunt anyway, but would it be a mob involved in tokens? The answer lies in an admittedly difficult job of balancing.

Also, we know that we can also exchange ores etc for tokens on a daily basis. These make up most of the daily missions so far. Is it the tokens that are supposed to help give the ores and crystals a certain mu, or will 'donating' ores really only affect the speed of unlocking certain developments on Cyrene?

As Ed has stated (chat exerpt see above), the idea is that people should want to buy tokens off newbs, not just get their own bonuses 1:1 over time from their own earnt tokens. It is similar to you doing something for yourself some of the time, and doing it as a 'job' for others. You need the 'value' to be higher if it is your 'job'.

In EU we still have sweating, which can be done at any time, limited by the speed of gathering. I would expect limited activities (daily missions) to try and be worth at least the same, probably more, even though they have the added bonus of being more fun. It is this balance I am asking about, not simply being happy to get a nice bonus gun from my own saved token stack (which is very nice, and I am in no way complaining about gifts). It is about the economy including other people and the mu chains that result .

On decay, yes I am fully aware that players have researched this and provided the info in the past. That is not a particularly good argument for sticking to a policy of low information, though, in my opinion. It is great that you took it on yourself to do a test and put the information up 'somewhere'. Although I personally like to search for information and get an edge by knowing efficiencies etc, for most people looking up information should quickly help them directly, not from third-party sites, in my opinion. It slows people down, many people don't go to the right places, it's less fun, etc. However, I did also say this was secondary information - knowing the tt you will get before you trade would seem to me to be a very basic piece of information, however.

Also, the improved HK may indeed look good against other Cyrene initial weaps, but if lots of new people come to Cyrene, then so will traders from Caly etc with other weaps. This is good, np, but I think most people will quickly develop a different sense of value and not be buying at even close to 30 peds equivalent, not even 10 actually (my opinion).

 

[Xandra]

Hi,

without talking about the items in question, I want to emphasize that:

• It was a sheer fun & pleasure meeting the Cyrene Officials.
• They met my question in no time, and provided useful information quickly.
• I was most pleased to be able to discuss such topics with the powers that be.

This was one of my most great EU encounters at all, and I'd like to distribute a big fat +Rep again - just I have to wait.

At the items:

They are poor atm and not worth doing dailies to get them, at all. Nobody needs an improved junk sword that is ways below any other planets TT swords.

We'll see. Cannot imagine the Cyrene crew creating such crazy poor weapons with no intention. Will we get another damage type where they'll shine?

Have a good time!

 

[jetsina]

Yes, also from me I stress that the positiveness of a personal experience is great, but it should be policy that any informational chats have the information contained blogged, diaried or similar in near-time for all. Even if there are not many people active now, this should be considered a warm-up for an element of good and quick communication in the future!

Cannot imagine the Cyrene crew creating such crazy poor weapons with no intention. Will we get another damage type where they'll shine?

To me this is a classic example of trying to explain away something which appears poor now with the belief that there is something deeper in the system which we don't know about - and that's why it looks bad... BUT all will be revealed soon.
Unfortunately, there are countless examples of things where a deeper logic or solution simply does not appear to appear over time. "It must be part of a deeper plan" is a route I also try to take. Personally, I would like to believe it is just a placeholder that shows that the system is working properly, which will be replaced by 'proper offers' once the full launch comes. However, if that were the case, I would also make this clear to people which elements are just fillers, even if I don't reveal what will replace them!

(Side note: design seems to be something that must be accepted by MA. A new best weapon in some way probably needs to have less good stats too. The problem is that there are not so many variables to play with for a PP wanting a new and popular weapon that MA will also approve.
For the spear vehicle, I believe MA may have accepted the great mountain-climbing ability but at the cost of the spear taking lots of SI damage. To lesson this negative MA was prepared to allow a very high SI value so that at least players could still use the vehicle for a good time without it blowing up and needing a repair tool and welding wire every journey. This may mean my complaint about the high damage even driving on flat roads has no chance of being resolved, as it was part of a balancing deal. It still takes the fun out of driving the spear for me personally, but it may be one example of a 'hidden reason' why something is the way it is.)

Why the current token reward weapons are so poor could be due to either reason above - either it will change soon or MA wouldn't let them have anything in this category that was better. Maybe only one token offer will actually turn out to be 'worth it', and that is for the community to decide for themselves when that offer comes?

 

[Xandra]

Hi,

Yes, also from me I stress that the positiveness of a personal experience is great, but it should be policy that any informational chats have the information contained blogged, diaried or similar in near-time for all.

For sure this would be nice and appreciated, but there's one problem:
The chat log I posted is heavily edited, I cleared all & anything that wasn't directly related to the topic of this thread, and didn't come from me or the 2 Cyrene Officials.
In this special case it wasn't this much to clear, very few ppl at the site, but usually such encounters are a sheer madness of ppl talking all in between each other, and hardly understandable. How to edit to have it making sense? Whose questions to keep, and whose to skip?
I'm able to do this, I just don't care. But the Cyrene team cannot do such, they have to be very cautious, and treat all players equal - or there'll be people that feel ignored and get angry.
A solution would be to only quote the Officials, and add the relevant questions without the players name, maybe.
In any case it would be a lot of work ...

To me this is a classic example of trying to explain away something which appears poor now with the belief that there is something deeper in the system which we don't know about - and that's why it looks bad... BUT all will be revealed soon.

Well, my first thought was "Whaaat? That's impossible!"
Thinking twice lead me to the conclusion that it's either:

• a nasty bug, where wrong values was entered by a trainee.Not applicable, because the basic TT sword is even worse: S.I. Psy-Sword
• a system immanent thing: those Cyrene swords have actually a quite nice eco (see above), but what will you kill with such toys?
  Maybe Cyrene will have lowest HP mobs for the beginners?
• Or, maybe Cyrene mobs will be very vulnerable against sword damage - but this would make the TT swords from other planets ways overpowered, right?

I just cannot imagine that, given the proven abilities of the Cyrene team, they'd release such a "cake cutter" and would name it "A.R.C. Improved Psy-Sword (L)" - this just doesn't make sense.

So my only explanation at this time is that this sword will be even more eco then the TT one, and will perfectly fit the small scout bots, to harvest them "Low Grade Power Supply"'s.

Or that the Cyrene team has a surprise in store, for us ;-)

Have a good time!

 

[jetsina]

Yes Xandra, I obviously want to keep the work required to a minimum - that's why I said 'the information contained' should find a way out into the world, not necessarily the exact wording in chat (like from memory). I realise you put good work in to get the info onto the forum, so thank you very much.

On low HP mobs, there are planet-specific mobs with 10 and 20 health and high density spawns on all planets as far as I can tell. I already prefer to use one tt cyrene weapon over other weaps for these low mobs, so I'm not sure what an (L) weapon with effective mu will have to bring to the table in terms of stats.
Mob vulnerability is an interesting thought in terms of missed hits, loot type for use etc. However, if a weapon is a great secret weapon, then how long will it take for the secret to reach newbies unless an 'advantage' is actually publicised? Glad to see you with good thinking and an active discussion while we wait for 'soon' to tell us more about 'soon+' for the actual green light!

 

[Xandra]

Hah, I knew it!

So my only explanation at this time is that this sword will be even more eco then the TT one, and will perfectly fit the small scout bots, to harvest them "Low Grade Power Supply"'s.

You've read this news about the token system?

In the case of the sword mentioned in a prior thread, yes it might be under powered, but the truth is, it is more eco then the TT sword that is mentioned. It is not meant to be used on large creatures but rather as a great starter sword for a newer player who will get plenty of play time (especially if out there hunting with a mentor).

You have gained experience in your Soothsaying skill.

Soon I'll unlock "Scrying" I bet ;-)))

Good news, guess I'll need one of these cake cutters - might be a useful finisher
And you just cannot have enough swords ...

Have a good time!

 

[jetsina]

Yes, nicely accurate thinking Xandra . It's also why I was making small noises about maybe, just maybe, providing details of the eco, as the only raw information available is the decay class, which basically doesn't tell you anything much at all apart from which band of decay per use you are in. Yes, in the past someone has calculated this stuff via fruit method or whatever and posted it on the wiki, I know ....

Ed has also changed his angle a bit on the token gathering. He did write that doing missions to sell the tokens to others was one aim (which I think would have a positive upward influence on token mu). More recently he has written about using the tokens yourself to buy a weapon, for example, to extend your playing per ped. I would assume this would result in less mu 'leverage', but it was nice to get Ed's answer the other day that gives us more insight.

Anyway, we shouldn't have much more waiting now, so I'll be thinking about hugging Cyrene's atmosphere again shortly! . It does depend a bit on 'other stuff in the vu', but we shall see!

 

[Xandra]

Hi,

if I get this right then collecting tokens would be an improved form of "sweating" on Cyrene, for "Premiums" (depositors). Using very low deposit because of highly optimized low-decay gear, giving the typical 200 PED first time depositor a wide range to collect & sell tokens, for quite small money. Keeping him/her in game for long enough, for low money, until they swallowed the bait.

A smart idea!

I didn't think of this before, but it makes sense. Catering the non-depositors is fruitless, even if they'd once mutate to depositors - you'd feed 20 of 'em to win one single depositor.

Instead catering the fresh depositors, even if they only dropped a few PED, makes much more sense. And adding a system where even a small initial investment would be required to participate in the "real game" - Kudos, Cyrene team - this was the best idea ever.

For sure, I might be completely wrong. Have fun, anyways!

 

[Ed Robles 3]

I didn't think of this before, but it makes sense. Catering the non-depositors is fruitless, even if they'd once mutate to depositors - you'd feed 20 of 'em to win one single depositor.

Instead catering the fresh depositors, even if they only dropped a few PED, makes much more sense. And adding a system where even a small initial investment would be required to participate in the "real game" - Kudos, Cyrene team - this was the best idea ever.[/quote]

Thank you for noticing Xandra. We do have content lined up for non depositors but the majority of our work is aimed at players who wish to deposit what we consider to be a normal amount for an MMO with a monthly fee. We want our players to be able to achieve similar amounts of fun and interactions with the same amount of money. We realize Entropia is different in that we need to cater to many different player types but we are always aiming for great content and play for our players who deposit.

 

[Xandra]

Hi,

We do have content lined up for non depositors but the majority of our work is aimed at players who wish to deposit what we consider to be a normal amount for an MMO with a monthly fee.

If you'll make your planet work for new depositors (or old eco-optimized hunters/ miners), and are able to make this known, I don't think any hindrance to success should be left.
For sure, you'll have to distribute some goodies to the high end crowd (Ubers), you need to cater for your role models, too.

But making your planet known as a great starter area will pay for itself - any player started at Cyrene will add to your funds even if emigrated later.

I might be misunderstanding, but I can't but rejoice for Ed's statements. This guy is cool, Cyrene is absolutely insanely great, and I'll be back there soon.

My best wishes to the Cyrene team!

Have a good time!

 

[DavinFelth]

Zyn Tokens??
Are you only able to get the two camp fires currently? I can't find anything else and would love to know.
Thanks.

 

[Kris | Cyrene]

Hey DavinFelth,

Right now it's only the campfires, but we're working on opening up the other token vendor for the Zyns.

Cheers,
Kris