Wish List Ecotron camping - The problem/improvements

[John Galt]

Eitherway, a system that promotes botting is a bad system.

I agree 100%

Gathering the badges is not the issue we're discussing here [...]. By camping you are not at all contributing to cyrene[...]. The current system awards passiveness rather than active participation in this game.

I don't agree. Badges are totally related since badges are the activity indicator. If a person logs 1 hour every over day, or visits Cyrene on weekends, will never get 200 badges. Boting is the problem here, not the weapon or the path to it. Someone who checks the shop daily every hour while being online 6h a day has a great chance of getting one. Ask krasko who got one legit. As I said, if botting is eliminated, I see zero issues with the unlimited weapon that requires 200 badges (read "time+PED") +100 PED. Making it player bound is the one chance I wouldn't argue against.
I don't know how eco you are but 200 badges means I lost 200 x 10 PED average loss =2000 PED plus at least 100 hours of active hunt. So 2100 PED + 100 hours + the effort to check the store regularly seems like a very fair price for the Ecotron.

It is unfair that those who actively play on cyrene misses out on the rewards that are rewarded for being active. The system should award participation and a more active cyrene.

If botting is removed from the equation, I don't feel the current system as unfair at all. I can gauge the level of efford I am making to gather my 200 badges. If when I get 200 I find it impossible to get my weapon due to bots, instead of join your side of the argument I will start reporting bots when I see them, and leave the planet altogether if I see the same bots there a week after being reported and nothing being done. Its called "putting your money where your mouth is" or "express opinion with your dollars". As I see it, boting is the problem. If not dealt with, count me out soon after I get my 200 in 3 weeks time. This is how strongly I feel about your first argument which I agree with 100%

 

[Hatten]

I don't agree.

Botting is just one of the symptoms of a poor system, there are more pressing problems though.


I agree that whilst gathering the badges you are more or less active, thats not the problem and thats why that doesnt interest me. The problem appears when you stop gathering and start camping, you go from being active to being passive, i.e. the amount of badges only gives an indication of past activeness but the camping is purely passive (if you want an ecotron UL that is).

You keep overvaluing time, time isn't worth anything in this game. Knowledge is worth a lot, PED is worth a lot and ability to make/ save peds is worth a lot. There are many examples of time being close to worthless in this game, and that is a good thing. Keeps this game from becoming passive and turning into a mindless grind MMO.


If you really pay 10 ped per badge in average you really have to question your gear/ way of playing. Killing 12 dire weeds with ish 3.0 eco would cost 12 ped, with 95 % return that would mean that the cost of a badge is ~0.6 ped. So the total cost of an ecotron would be around 220 ped. As time is worthless this makes the ecotron a bargain.

The system therefore should promote spending peds on cyrene, i.e. being active in order to create a more fair situation.

 

[John Galt]

My math was indeed flawed.
I see your point of it being obscenely cheap if you count time value as zero. And cost of opportunity as also zero.
Time's value is a subjective thing I guess. What everyone agrees on is that bots are bad and need addressing urgently.
I don't really know how bad the problem is since I have not seen the shop bots people complain about.
I think that being a rare spawn and requiring luck to find it available after the 200 badge hard work, everything should be fine once bot issue is resolved.

 

[Erza]

Since so many no longer care about RCE, perhaps Cyrene devs talk with MA about getting a system where:
- anyone who completes the missions and gains access to the NPC
- also has their account show new items in webshop within 24hrs after meeting the requirements
- Userbound UL Ecotron v.15eW, v.26bW, v.42eW are all available at 1000 USD/each (equivalent of 10k ped)
- And yes the players can purchase one of each because their skills will grow
Suggesting 1000 USD since theres plenty (700) more eco weapons ingame with top 250 sell around 2.5k+/-k
Meanwhile keep everything in game as it is for players who prefer RCE, have patience, and like the challenge.

Pretty nice idea Hec, so with 10K ped one of each bound UL weapon and if possible 1 good stats bound UL armor with Acid, Electric and Cold stats included
These stats are really needed here on Cyrene

 

[Hec]

Pretty nice idea Hec, so with 10K ped one of each bound UL weapon and if possible 1 good stats bound UL armor with Acid, Electric and Cold stats included
These stats are really needed here on Cyrene

Thanks just want to clarify the webshop is cash only, and its the same ecotrons as in game only add W to name and userbound, perhaps the 1k USD is too steep? Dunno, regardless such a think could make things interesting.


However:
John's post about 200 badges really pinpoints the crux of the problem and where disagreement starts at.
Which also points to a much simpler solution.

At every 200 badges a player gets 1 ecotron ticket/requisition-slip. (ie. 200, 400, 600, etc.)
1 ticket/requisition-slip must handed in when actually purchasing the ecotron from NPC.
It still allows players that want to still farm and resell can.
It still allows players that want v.15e now, also to get v.26b later when they have the skills/ped/interest.
It still allows players to have multiple ecotrons for long hunts.
It should benefit the Cyrene economy more then just the shrapnel per ecotron.
It keeps ecotrons unchanged and in the Expected RCE spirit of EU.

But how does that affect players that already have badges?
- Suggest players with 200 badges but never purchased any ecotron and never owned any ecotron gets 1 ticket per every 200 badges they have.
- But should players with 200 badges not get 1 ticket per every ecotron they've owned or purchased???
- Regardless that would not be retroactive beyond the day the change is made. (In other words if player had 4 ecotrons but only 200 badges on day of change then they get no ticket, but later get 1 ticket after earning another 200 badges.)
Perhaps have achievement (ie. We need Badges x1) and just increment it's counter by 1 every 200 badges earned.

Ticket/requisition-slip is like deeds with 0.01pec TT value and can also be sold.
And it must be sellable because someone put the time into hunting to earn 200 badges and this is RCE.
Plus adding sellable Ticket/requisition-slip will add to the Cyrene economy for those that want to hunt but don't want to stand around npc checking it constantly.


And before someone suggests: the 200 badges can't be turned in to purchase ecotron, there's too many other things dependent and that'll probably break more things then fix.

 

[Hec]

And to add to the concept further because (IMO) Limited ecotrons just aren't worth 200 badges.

Suggest Ticket/requisition-slip gets turned into NPC as normal, but if Limited ecotron then the player gets ecotron (L) plus Half Ticket/requisition-slip.
The Half Ticket/requisition-slip would even look like it's torn in half, still have 0.01pec value like deeds and is sellable.
But the description would say it's only good for 1 ecotron (L).
Eitherway the player can't get 1 ecotron (L) until they've gotten 200 badges which is like a down-payment for 2 ecotron (L).

As for players camping at NPC so what of it?
They can't access NPC without getting 200 badges minimum.
If they want to buy ticket/requisition-slip or a half-ticket/requisition-slip then they must negotiate with other players who have gotten 200 badges...



And before someone suggests: why not issue 1 ticket/requisition-slip per 100 badges? Too messy since it would need to skip the first 100 badges, and UL ecotrons would need 1 ticket/requisition-slip if player got 200 badges yet would need 2 ticket/requisition-slips afterwards which would confuse some players, etc, etc, etc.

 

[John Galt]

I think we are fighting too many battles against each other's point of view here, instead of uniting against the only consensual issue.
- UL existence to begin with - Some say yes, other say no!
- Make it bind! - Some say yes, other say no!
- More this or less that...
Lets put all that in a box for now, shall we?

The only thing the majority of players, PP and MA agrees on is the bots issue. So lets unite against that. Once we win that battle, then we can address the other issues, if there are any left to argue about.

 

[Hatten]

I think we are fighting too many battles against each other's point of view here, instead of uniting against the only consensual issue.
- UL existence to begin with - Some say yes, other say no!
- Make it bind! - Some say yes, other say no!
- More this or less that...
Lets put all that in a box for now, shall we?

The only thing the majority of players, PP and MA agrees on is the bots issue. So lets unite against that. Once we win that battle, then we can address the other issues, if there are any left to argue about.

The purpose of this thread is to rework the distribution system in some way to award those that actually play on cyrene and make it worthwhile gathering badges for all, not just for those that have the time to stand around all day.


There are several good and potential solutions to the camping problem. These are the ones I prefer:

• Queue system with certain conditions
• The vendor being accessible only for a short while per 24h (however the is a risk of alts being created)
• Ecotron is looted from a certain mob that you get access to when you have 200+ badges

 

[John Galt]

As I see it the current cost of the Ecotron has 3 components:
- Shrapnel PED cost of 100 PED
- 200 Badge time/PED cost (no less than 4 weeks for a very active player on Cyrene)
- shop spawn competition (a.k.a. cost of opportunity)

As you pointed out, the PED cost is very low. What is the limiting factor then? The shop spawn competition.
If shop bots are eliminated, it becomes a matter of commitment to get it and everyone stands on an equal foot.
It is an integral part of the "cost" to get it. Or someone can jump the queue and buy it on the open market for whatever the price it goes for, paying that "cost" in PED to whoever was more committed to pay that last third of the price, on a supply/demand free market.

Do you disagree with the fact that bots are an issue (if not the issue)? If bots are the one issue we all agree on, why not get that part solved and then move to those other issues?

 

[Hatten]

The big picture here is that badges were introduced as an incentive to keep doing activities on cyrene, a way to award loyal and active players on cyrene. The UL-weapons have been viewable for a long time but they were introduced into the game last fall.

Currently the distribution system fails to be coherent in this manner. It does not award continuos progress and activity. This is the main problem with this system. Almost everyone loses in the current system as the same people reap all the rewards due to being able to camp more than others. The PP would also benefit from reworking the system into a more activity based system, it would be more coherent and increase turnover/overall activity on cyrene.

The current distribution awards the wrong thing, both from a player perspective and a PP perspective. Camping and the "cost of opportunity" as you put it doesn't contribute to Cyrene as a planet. The only benefit is to the avatars that can reap all the rewards but a activity based system would contribute towards promoting the planet, increasing turnover and the supply of ecotrons would increase as well (The supply is dependent on activity). A passive system is creating a negative cycle for the planet overall.

 

[John Galt]

The big picture here is that badges were introduced as an incentive to keep doing activities on cyrene, a way to award loyal and active players on cyrene.[...]

Currently the distribution system fails to be coherent in this manner. It does not award continuous progress and activity[...].

I believe badges are working as intended. They do pull us to hunt targets we would possibly not hunt otherwise. I think it is totally coherent. There are higher level Ecotrons for the higher stages of the badge progression, right? Isn't that continuous progress? Once you acquire any other UL, say.... a X3, are you bound to kill 200 Old Panes a week to justify having it? No. Once you get it, you have it. Once someone puts the efford (PED or time) in and they get the reward out, its a done deal. I spend 2h a day getting 4 badges. Yes, that is because I am limited by my DPS and eco options. But from my point of view, once I play actively 100 hours to get 200 badges, and fork out the PED for the shoop, and check the shop 200 times within 2 weeks after I get the 200 badges, I damn well don't see it as wrong getting a UL Ecotron as reward. And that is a fair reward if all the thousands of EU players decide to put similar efford in it, I see nothing wrong in all getting one, after enough time of shop camping.
What makes this not possible and fair for everyone? Bots.

Almost everyone loses in the current system as the same people reap all the rewards due to being able to camp more than others.

You have to differentiate live and bot campers, mate.
If it is live camping I see nothing wrong with it. If it is a bot it should have dire consequences. No one in his right mind will invest the 100 hours into badging an alt to 200 to make such a bot if he knows the bot will be banned before buying the weapon.
Just because you can't live camp doesn't mean it is wrong. Just like the fact I can't complain about the fact that other people have goodies that I don't and are no longer in game.

 

[Hatten]

I believe badges are working as intended

You fail to grasp what I'm saying though, the badge gather is indeed ACTIVE but the activity level drops when you camp, you become PASSIVE. The passive duration is far longer than the active duration and its hurting Cyrene when looking at the bigger picture. In order to get an UL ecotron you have to stay PASSIVE for a long duration of time.

The badge gathering is NOT the issue here.

The Xent example that you discuss is a totally different concept to the current distribution system of ecotrons. You have to be active and participating in the economy in order to be able to get one. It contributes to Cyrene as a planet. Time is not worth anything as previously discussed. Thats why a distribution system based on loot is a better idea than the current system.

The current system does not award contribution, its a serious flaw.

If it is live camping I see nothing wrong with it.

It seems like you might lack some experience from being on cyrene a long time. The main problem is that the system awards the same persons over and over again without any contribution between the awardments. Its srsly hurting the image and incentive of Cyrene as a planet. You have to look at the bigger picture, mate.

 

[John Galt]

Time is not worth anything as previously discussed.

Just because you said so doesn't mean it is discussed, let alone agreed on
If time is worth nothing for you, it must be an infinite resource for you. Do you have the time to live camp? If not, logic begs that you value a resource you don't have enough of.

The main problem is that the system awards the same persons over and over again without any contribution between the awardments. Its srsly hurting the image and incentive of Cyrene as a planet. You have to look at the bigger picture, mate.

How big is the big picture?
Doesn't someone has to hunt or mine or craft (play actively) sometime somewhere to pay the free market value of the Ecotron to the guy who invested his own IRL time to camped the shop passively? So... someone did play actively in order to get that gun.
Those same persons camp live or bot? If they camp live there is no issue about it. If they bot and PP/MA does nothing about it, the problem is bigger than a freaking gun.

As said repeatedly, shop bots are the main problem at hand, as far as I see it.

EDIT: And I tell you more..... if it becomes evident that the use of bots is something PP/MA do not care about, in order to level the playing field I will find those shop bots code and make it public for everyone to use if they choose to.

 

[Hatten]

Just because you said so doesn't mean it is discussed, let alone agreed on
If time is worth nothing for you, it must be an infinite resource for you. Do you have the time to live camp? If not, logic begs that you value a resource you don't have enough of.

Just look at PCF and activities/items that involves time spending, its not worth anything. Perhaps you're new to this game and haven't seen that yet but I can assure you that's the case. It doesnt make sense from a business-perspective to put great value in time without attaching it to ped spending. Its just common sense really.

This thread is not about me and my ingame activities, its about the overall welfare of Cyrene in relation to the vendor distribution system. I think I've made that pretty clear a few pages ago.

How big is the big picture?

The big picture is Entropia as a business and Cyrene as part of that business.

If one wants to buy an Ecotron UL on the free market that involves peds and a relocation of resources, I agree. But still, a system that doesnt have a passive part would still be contributing a lot more to the overall activity. So a new active system is better business than a passive system.

It would also provide incentive to active players and remove the temptation to withdraw from being active once you reach 500 badges. The current system promotes becoming passive at 200 or even more at 500 badges, you can reap markup without contributing and just leeching of other players activity which creates reluctance towards being active.

It is clear that from a loyalty and business perspective a system that promotes activity is far better than a system that promotes passivenss.

 

[John Galt]

I fully agree with all you just said on the second part.

On the first part you mention "vendor distribution system". Vendors should not distribute stuff. just like in real life, they provide a good or a service to whoever is able and willing to pay the asking price when the good/service is available. If someone else in a fair way is more willing or more able to get the good, so he should and not anyone else. Maybe the spawn is timed and some people know that and others don't making them more able. Maybe some people want it so much they take 2 weeks off work to get them making them more willing. Maybe some people are so much willing and able to get the item they fork out thousands of real cash to get it. None of that is wrong if it is a voluntary decision that does not break the User Licence Agreement. Now.... when you add bots to the equation, it is a different story.

I would suggest stop the bots, lets the chips fall where they may, then review all that other stuff. Bots is an issue that crosses all aspects of the game, and is a major issue on a RCE.

 

[krasko]

I haven't seen any bots in vendors.
Mostly familiar faces of of active players, people I know or seen on Cyrene.
Some of them waiting their chance for 2+ years so far.

 

[Hatten]

Either way, the bots is not the concern even though the system promotes botting which is evidence of a flawed system.

The main concern is still the distribution and the current system for distribution. It should promote spending peds and making Cyrene more active as it benefits all interested parties (except for those that hoard MU from the vendors) but they aren't representative of the cyrene playerbase.

 

[John Galt]

I haven't seen any bots in vendors.
Mostly familiar faces of of active players, people I know or seen on Cyrene.
Some of them waiting their chance for 2+ years so far.

I was led to believe there were bots at the shops.
I will now exclude myself from the discussion, since the bots were the only thing I saw wrong about the whole topic.

 

[Hec]

So can post #107 down be removed...
1. The false mentions of boting will just get rehashed in this topic over and over and over and over and over and over
by mindless few who glance at topic without reading it through.
2. And as John admitted above there was a misunderstanding which created post 107 and below it.

 

[Hatten]

I think it should be kept, there might be some confusion but it still contains a relevant discussion.

Also, its difficult to say if there is botting or not from a player perspective. It would be easy to bot down there without being noticed by other players so the danger of botting is still a relevant issue.